Confused. Does position have anything to do with where the harp is put in mouth?
Hi @therodes58
No ! This is a bit difficult for me to explain at this time because I am not feeling well. I am sure someone else on this forum can explain it to you. I will just say this:
Position is the musical key that you can play on the harp. First position is the key of the harp (e.g. a C harp can be played in 1st position in the key of C). Second position (aka cross harp) permits playing that same harp in the key that is the 5th note of the scale that you can play in 1st position (e.g. C harp in 2nd position plays music in the key of G).
You can learn more on @Luke ’ s YouTube site and by learning about the “Circle of Fifths”.
I am too weak to say more right now. Sorry.
– Slim
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Thanks. Guess I’m thick. Have watched several YouTube presentations promising to simplify positions but none have worked
Hope you’re feeling better!
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Hello @therodes58,
In principle you can use any note of a harp as the fundamental note. The most important and common, as already mentioned, is the 2nd position - (called cross or crossed). This must definitely be taken into account when purchasing the harp. For example, if you want to play the blues in E, you need a harp in A!
Straight is the more traditional style of play.
You should experiment a bit with the other positions. A challenge, for example, is if you just put on any CD or turn on the radio and then try to improvise with a harp that you have at hand. However, it is important that you don’t look for the ‘suitable’ harp, but rather the right notes on this harp. (However, this is more recommended for advanced players who are already confident in playing bends or given tones correctly.)
Key in which it is played:
In order to do this, you should know the tone overview of your harp!
Tone overview of diatonic blues harp in all 12 keys:
Best Regards from Astrid 
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Hi Slim. Best wishes and hopes for a speedie recovery. I do hope you’re ok soon. If we were physical neighbours I would ask what I could do. Hope you have people to care for you. Toog
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@therodes58 This is always a confusing topic at the beginning. This might help some:
Also :
Also, if you’re doing Beginner to Boss course, the Music Theory Appendix (Module 9) is helpful in understanding positions…
@Slim so sorry to hear you are suffering. I know you’d said it would be around this time that you’d really be in the thick. I’m praying for a full and speedy recovery for you my brother! God bless you and give you comfort and rest.
Aloha,
Luke
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MMM, I’m so confused. I am trying to play this song. I have looked it up on Aunty Google and she says it’s in D. So I tried a D harp. Then I thought mm doesn’t sound quite right. Maybe the song is Blues? How do I know? If it was blues I did the counting thing from the “what key is this video” and decided to play it bluesy I would need a G harmonica because that plays D blues in second position. I admit I actually don’t understand the position thing? Slim says it has no relevance to where you put the harmonica in your mouth. OK. So what does it mean? there are three Cs on a C harmonica. Does it have anything to do with which C you would be moving around to play a C tune. I am really lost on this. I keep watching videos and not getting it.
Seven nation army original needs a G harmonica from the lesson regarding this. So what key is the tune in? I guess G because it’s not blues. So as near as I can get to understanding this is that it means you move around the middle of the harp in the key of the song. Near hole 4. But if it’s blues you need a different key to the song? please help.
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Hello @toogdog,
This song belongs to the folk/rock genre.
I would use an A harp and start at -5 (D).
Oh yeah, I’m not really into the positions either. If the harp and the tones fit… 
Best Regards from Astrid
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Hello @toogdog,
This song belongs to the folk/rock genre.
I would use an A harp and start at -5 (D).
Oh yeah, I’m not really into the positions either. If the harp and the tones fit…
Best Regards from Astrid
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To really grasp the following, it is rather important to know the musical notes of at least the C major scale. I will not go into such details here, so if you need to learn that, then go to Wikipedia, or use some other source (perhaps YouTube, or some introductory music instructional book such as for a block flute or a beginner music theory book). Whether or not a song is a “blues” song is irrelevant: blues can be played in various harp positions.
As you (should) know, any given 10-hole diatonic Richter harmonica you buy comes in a particular key. To keep this simple, let’s stay with a C harmonica. The key of the harmonica is the note that you get when blowing on hole 1. For this harp it would be the note C. For a standard Richter tuned harp the
holes +4, +7 and +10 also produce the note C (the difference being that they are all in different octaves).
This C harp was originally (maybe back when it was first devised and built) used to play music in the key of C major, and that is what we now also call playing that harp in “first position”. So first position on any other such harp that is in another key (such as a G harp) means playing music on that harp using the major scale of its key (so for the G harp: G major). On the lower end and on the upper end of the C harp some of the notes of the C major scale are missing, but the scale is complete from 4 blow (+4) to 7 blow (+7):
+4 -4 +5 -5 +6 -6 -7 +7 are the notes C, D, E, F, G, A, B, C
the notes of the C major scale.
Musicians soon noticed that the C harp can also play notes that are not in the C major scale. To play these notes it is necessary to know how to “bend” some of the notes in some of the draw holes and in some of the blow holes. This is not so easy for a beginner to do, although some of these “new” notes use techniques that can be learned relatively quickly. For other “new” notes the techniques can be exceptionally difficult to master – so difficult that even many professional harp players cannot play them, or cannot play them well enough to use them in public or on a recording that they wish to sell.
However, when you can play at least some of these “new” notes, it becomes possible to play music using musical scales other that C major on your C harp.
One example for the C harp would be to play the music scale F major, which has all the same notes as C major except that the note B is no longer there and is replaced by the note Bb. On the C harp you could play the entire F major scale using the holes 2 up to 5, only now you start with 2 draw played using a “full step” bend (written as -2") to get the F, and you also must play 3 draw using a “half step” bend (written as -3’) to get the Bb note. The method used to play F major music is also called playing the C harp in the 12th position (why it is called 12th position will be (sort of) explained later).
Another example for the C harp is the G major scale. It has all the same notes as the C major scale except that the F is not present, but the F# is. To play this scale you have 2 choices:
(1) In the middle-range (holes 2 to 6): you must be able to play -3" (note = A) and you do not play -5 (F), but in its place you play 5 overblow (+5o) to get the F#. The problem here is the F# (5 overblow) is not easy to play;
(2) In the mid- to upper-range (holes 5 to 9) you must not play -9 (F) but instead play the 9 blow half-step bend (+9’) to get the F#. This is not too difficult to learn and it is the only “new” note that you must learn to play.
Playing music using the G major scale on a C harp is known as playing this harp in the 2nd position (aka “cross harp”).
In order to figure out which musical scale is normally played in each position of the 12 different positions on the C harp we can use the “Circle of Fifths”. Just as an example, check this video:
For more information, read closely the posts from @Luke and also the tables from AstridHandbikebee63 (given above in this topic). If you have further questions, feel free to ask.
Regards,
– Slim 
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Wow thanks. I feel a bit Pygmalion! By George I think she’s got it! So I can stick to picking up the harp of the key of the song. If I want to try different harps to change the sound I can basically just see how it sounds. Its not set in stone,blues or not blues. I did learn scales as a kid on piano so I get the idea of the way it works. I think my brain got hung up on the word position. I can only bend some notes so I best stick to first position for a while. I’m bogged in the beginner to boss bending unit. Thats ok I’ll nail it in the end. I’m very stubborn and am not going to let that little harp tell me he’s not doing what I want!
Just one question. What actual key is this song in do you think? I tried A harmonica as Astrid suggested. It sounds great solo. Nice tone but didn’t sound right playing along with the video. Maybe its me.
I can’t thank you enough for the time and patience you put into all your responses.
Toog
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Thanks Astrid. It sounds great in A. I can’t quite work out the whole tune but I’ll keep at it.
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Hi again,
Yes, you can do that. Doing so means that you are playing the harp in 1st position (the key of the harp).
Exactly. Using different harps (meaning harps in different keys) to get “different sounds” means that you are playing those other harps in positions other than 1st position. So, as you also said, you used an A harp (as suggested by Astrid @AstridHandbikebee63) and it sounds great solo. In fact, since I am almost certain that the song is in D major, playing the song on an A harp and playing it in the key of D major means that you are playing the A harp in 12th position (as you can confirm using the circle of 5ths).
The reason that you might be having some problems playing the song in 12th position on the A harp is that (as you mention) you have difficulty playing bends: 12th position does require playing some bends in order to play that A harp in the key of D major throughout the harp’s entire range. The root note of D major is, of course D – and on an A harp that note is at three different places: -2", -5 & -9. The major 3rd of the D major scale is F# and that occurs on the A harp at -3", -6 & -10. If you wish to play the 4th note of the D major scale (which is G) then you will really have trouble because to play it on the A harp you must be able to accurately play -3’, +6o (6 overblow) & +10" (10 full step blow-bend).
Compare that (the bends needed in 12th position on the A harp) with the note layout on a D harp and you will see that using the D harp in 1st position is much easier – although at the low end of the harp you still must be able to play -2’ (2 draw half step bend) and -3" (3 draw full step bend) if you want to be able to play all of the D major notes on the low end. Still, it is easier than playing in 12th position on an A harp. 
I personally would use a G harp played in 2nd position to play along with this song – but that is just my personal preference. 
Have fun,
– Slim
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Hello @Slim,
as always, wonderfully simply explained. Now I understand the position thing too. I know the A major, counted the notes of the harp up to 12 and also D out. Same on my circle of fifths pinned to the wall.
Astrid wishes you a nice weekend
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Fantastic thanks.
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@Toogdog The concept of positions is using a harmonica to play in a key other than the one printed on the harmonica. I don’t think the concept of positions didn’t come into play until African-American slaves started using their C harmonicas to play in the key of G.
The most common positions are 1st and 2nd position. And 1st position is used on MAJOR tunes, like this Tracy Chapman one that you have posted, and 2nd position is generally used for BLUES tunes (which have the 7th degree flatted). When you play in 2nd position, (key of G on a C harmonica) the 7 degree is naturally flatted and that’s why it works well.
So generally speaking, 1st position for major / folk / happy sounding stuff, and 2nd position for bluesy funky stuff. If you ever have questions about what position for a given song, just make a post in the forum as you’ve done here. 
Now to make things as clear as mud, it IS possible play in 2nd position on a major song, you just have to avoid the -5 which will tend to sound sour. (Or you get a country-tuned harmonica where the -5 is tuned up a half-step so it sounds a major 7th instead of a b7th.)
You could use an A harmonica to play in the key of D, but as you discovered there are several avoid notes (-3 and -7) and you have do some challenging bends and overflow to get some of the notes in the key, so it is a very challenging position to play in. (I played harmonica fro 30 years before I even HEARD of 12th position.)
Regarding 7 Nation Army, that song is a minor sound, and is in the key of E minor which is the relative minor of G major. (Called relatives because they contain the same exact notes, just calling a different note home base.) Using a G harmonica to play in Eminor is called playing in 4th position, and is a very common position to use on a minor tune.
I recommend watching or rewatching Module 9 Music Theory Appendix from the Beginner to Boss course - it should help clarify a lot of this stuff by seeing it on the piano where it all makes the most sense.
Hope that helps some?
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Yep. Thanks a lot. I’ll do that.
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It does help a lot. I will watch module 9. I am the sort of person who gets hung up on doing things in order, mastering them and then moving on. Which is why I am still on the bending module. I feel like I’m cheating when I have occasionally stepped into the tongue blocking module. I will definitely go the module 9 now. Thanks for the permission.
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Yeah that’s why I titled it “Appendix”. I didn’t want to include it in the lessons to slow down / discourage people who are interested in it, but I didn’t want to leave it out. I recommend watching the whole module a few times. For me it took that kind of immersion to learn all the theory stuff. Rock on Toooooooog!
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