Hello, I am new to the Forum and new to (blues) harmonicas also. That is I did play a little on Hohner Chordomonicas 40+ years ago but now got the idea trying some blues harps so I got myself a Seydel Session Steel and a Suzuki Promaster. I have searched various sites to get some ideas and read a few notes about the harmonicas needing some adjustments at delivery (reed setting firstly, but also fine tuning) … BUT…
I got much surprised finding that the tuning of those harps was a complete mess…
The direct impulse is just to send them back…but what then? Are other examples expected being out of tune as well ( i.e compared to the various standard settings the makers use) so you simply have to expect having to do adjustments for elementary satisfaction.? Are the top of the line models a lot better in this respect? Experiencies and suggestions welcome !
it COULD be that the tuning/etc is imperfect, but also with diatonics, especially with lower notes like -2, it can “seem” that the note is bad/wobbly/etc, but it’s just a matter of technique/adjusting your breath
True , so I rely better on the readings from the tuners and they correspond but there is some risk of course for faults due to bad sealing at the test bench as well as the mouth…
Having a problem out of the box is not at all uncommon. I have my harps sent to HARPSMITH to have everything correct. I enjoy converting air into noise but have no interest in adjusting, etc. I use HARPSMITH and every harp he has done plays great. He will tune and gap the harp for the music you like and do it well. He goes through the whole harp and makes sure it plays well. He is also a very nice, fair and through. Good as you can get.
Thanks for the tip! Im used to tuning accordions so if it had been some singular reeds I would try fixing it myself but I find it slightly annoying doing a full retuning on brand new instruments.
So…there are several issues involved:
- Are my readings inaccurate?
- If the “out of the box” deviations from expected status are common what is regarded as tolerable?
- If not “tolerable” what to do about it?
- Does it matter in practise at all? My very old Chordomonicas seem better “in tune” than these NEW harps BUT playing blues you constantly are expected to bend, so how much does fundamental tuning matter if bending pitch variation is wider than tuning irregularities ?
- Many people dont hear/notice some deviation of 5 cents, some not even 20 …so why bother?
- But…the producers do declare various tuning standards so…with what tolerance are the results reasonably accepted?
- The harps I got now seem not to be very “reasonably” right - according to my maybe not perfect tests and myself -
so… What is usually “accepted” among players and among producers? - A mid class harp costs say $50 and a complete service at least the double - maybe just hope for better luck next time??? Or just neglect it bending on…
If you are very disturbed by a deviation of ca. 5% then I think that you are probably going to be re-tuning all reeds of all of your harps until they match the tuning that you desire. Don’t forget that there is no absolute “standard” when it comes to tuning. Even for “Concert Pitch” (aka “Concert A”) there is not a universally accepted value even today and it has changed over the centuries. True, there is an ISO definition of international standard pitch as A= 440 Hz. But that is still not used by everyone.
For more detailed information on this interesting topic you should read these two articles in Wikipedia:
Additional consideration should be given to the fact that as you play the harmonica, the exact pitch of the reeds changes as they collect condensation on the reeds (which tends to lower their pitch). To compensate for that, some people tune their harps 2-4 Hz higher than you might otherwise expect.
Finally there are all of the various harmonica tunings to consider, e.g. “just intonation”, “compromised tuning”, “7-limit tuning”, “13-limit tuning” and others. So I think that you have your work cut out for you. But don’t forget to have fun !!
A complete set up will involve making sure the reed plates are flat as well as the comb, embossing and tuning and curing any air leaks. The tuning he does is great as every reed set correct, which is tough given its so difficult to blow a constant flow. Frankly I do not expect any harp to be right when I get one and have yet to be satisfied with a mass produced instrument like a harp out of the box, You paid $50 dollars the set up will cost more than the harp. I would give it a try to set up first. Flat reed plates, no air leaks and gapping will get the harp closer to what you want.
Given the cost of your harp the first thing I would do is check to see if the reed plates are flat. I use 1,500 sand paper to see where a plate needs to be straightened. I rotate both plates very lightly and look to see where the dark places are. The dark places are not straight and what is shining is right, I use the claws to lightly bend the plate and rotate it again to see if the dark places are gone. with I also toss a wooden comb and put in a plastic one. I rotate the comb to make sure it is flat. Then gapping the reeds is not a difficult thing, especially for some one like you that has tackled a more difficult instrument. I gap the reed as close as I can so the notes activate quickly. A rule of thumb is get the reed have the reed gap up about as thick as it is. Then go from there until you are satisfied with the harp.
Point 3 Air leaks are a very frustrating thing and must be cured first. I never expect a new harp to play well right out of the box. Regarding point 7 harp manufactures are getting their profit margins squeezed by Chinese competition, resulting harps being sold without things being right. Corners are cut.
Point 5 is spot on. Point 2 is open for debate but I feel the answer is yes they are expected but no on tolerable.
In summary I suggest you make sure the reed plates and comb are flat first. Without these issues being cured its highly unlikely you would ever like the harp. Reed gapping is do by making small changes. I use a 10x loop to see how the reeds look after and adjustment and the reeds plinked a few times. Once you have no air leaks and flat plates the reeds are what is left. I would not spend another $50 dollars on a second harp as it is highly likely you will have two harps that need attention.
Hope this helps.
Scott
Scott, thanks for the info and advice! I can certainly have fun anyway Im not a musician and not so particular for my own part. I just got curious about the demands or experiences from others.
I will wait for some response from the dealers first…I will be back afterwards …
Carlos1, I dont bother myself about 5 cent but here we got +/- 10 or even 20 and despite I can live with that I still wonder what can be expected from the producers vs their own declarations. Can it be what I hinted…harmonicas are not so pitch stable vs air pressure anyway and apart from that players are occupied bending as good as they can and I am fully engaged getting enough noise out of it all the same. I am expecting some reactions from the dealers for a start…
@Ramino
Be sure to read the wikipedia links. If your harp has a compromised tuning from the factory then you will find some reeds seem to be 10 cents or even more “out of tune” than you would expect from equal temperament tuning (which is how most tuning devices show you when you move from one reed to the next). Here is another (quite technical) article about what exactly “equal temperament” means:
If your harp manufacturer sends their harps out with tuning for blues and chordal playing (as, for example; are some Hohner models) then using a tuning device will indicate that some of the reeds are “out of tune” – which they are if you expect equal temperament tuning. Until you understand some of the reasons for the different types of harp tunings, then you will never really understand why some of your harps seem to be out of tune.
Thanks! but I have been tuning squeezeboxes for almost 50 years so I am fairly familiar with all this…The trick now is that the producers as far as I can see have declared using a tuning system that seems not compatible with my results 
or reverse…
I am not familiar with the tuning and possible tuning variations of “squeezeboxes”, but it sounded to me as though you were not familiar with blues harp tunings. Just trying to be of assistance, and hoping that you find your way to blues harp enjoyment.
Many thanks for your consideration and kind assistance ! youre so right, I am not familiar with blues harp tunings. The problem being that whatever system that might have been practised with my two new harps it seemed that it had failed since the tuning looks not systematic in the way I expected, but my expectations may have been unjustified…
Now that you have had a bad out of the box you are a seasoned member of this forum. I am interested in hearing what the dealer/ manufacture says.
@Ramino
To get you started: if your blues harp has come from the factory with the so-called “Just Intonation” tuning then the chords that you play in 2nd position sound really great. However, if you play single notes then you will find that the tuning is “off” for some of the reeds. The best example is for the -5 (draw five) note. On a C harp this is the note F. With “just intonation” tuning that note is 20 cents or more flat compared to what a tuning device will show for F.
So does that mean that the harp came “out of tune at delivery”? The answer is “yes” and “no”. The answer is “yes” it is “out of tune” if you expect “12 tone equal temperament” tuning, but the answer is “no” if you expect “just intonation” tuning!!
So which is “better” or “correct”? There is no clear “black or white” answer to this. It all depends upon what you wish to have and to play. If you play mainly or even exclusively single note melodies on you harp, then the “just intonation” tuning will sound sort of “out of tune” for some of the notes (e.g. the F described above, as well as others). But if you mainly or exclusively play chords on your blues harp (especially in 2nd position) then "just intonation tuning sounds great, but those same chords played on a harp with “12 tone equal temperament” tuning do not sound as full and rich.
I hope that this helps. If not, then it is my fault for not explaining this in a way that you can understand.
Ill be back when I got some replies
I think I understand the theory good enough. Anyway… Harp1 is expected coming in a kind of “Compromise just temperament” and Harp2 is expected being in “Equal temperament” but my trials show that both deviate 5,10 or even 20 cent and despite it probably might not matter a lot in “blues harmonica” since many notes are “bent” anyway BUT even that bending should result in reasonable correct pitch to sound nice. It may be a greater issue if the harp is meant to be ET which can be expected being used for straight single note playing and maybe together (!) with other instruments factually used in ET and you more easily will notice harmony conflicts.
I am curious to hear more from players who have explored the matter, since some, like Scott here, report that my assumptions or findings are not unusual.
Ramino - technique can greatly alter the pitch of draw holes 1-6 and blow holes 7-10 by as much as a whole 50 cents or more!!
I can’t tell you how many times a beginner has told me their hole -2 is broken!
I doubt very much that your Seydel is significantly out of tune, tho it is possible. Even the best companies will occasionally ship a lemon of course - and they’ll make it right.
But if you are fairly new to the harmonica, technique could be playing a factor as well.
Thanks. Yes I know pretty well…the point that I am asking the stupid questions is I am curious HOW much factory settings may deviate still being regarded as fairly common or normal. I am not so keen on just returning them not knowing if I can expect something different.
You can download a tuner from the app store that will cost little to nothing. I bought a C A tuner and it tells you exactly what a reed is set at. it also is good for seeing when you hit various bends like the three on -3. I think they are around $20 and worth it.